Well put, Foamy! I've never been so embarrassed by my government!

quote: Originally posted by Phishpond417 quote: quote: Originally posted by FoamDome If there is proof positive that Assad used gas, let history show that among nations of the world only the United States took some form of punitive action in response to a violation of the law of war. That should be the only intention of our action, even if it is just seen as symbolic by some. Whether it succeeds or has secondary effects on the civil war is not relevant to the purpose. I think this accords with the Just War tradition. I am aware that the civil war in Syria is a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia, and that by entering the fray, we draw Russia into the mix--a dangerous and volatile array of power. Yet I also believe that if we did nothing, the world would be even more dangerous. So, on behalf of my children, and for the sake of pushing Armageddon off for another generation, I hope Congress backs the President. Didn't the US use sarin nerve gas against the North Vietnamese in the 60's & the 70's as well as other chemical weapons? Did anybody take any action against us as a result of that?

This is a beer joint and this topic is a little heavy for some but I think your question deserves a serious response and I'll do my best. I want to show the history of despicable weapons, the history of attempts to limit them, the history of the US’s use of them in the era you cited, the world’s response to the US action, and what all of that means for the present. Five quick paragraphs and then we’ll get a beer. The history of despicable weapons Chemical weapons are ancient, as old as civilization itself. Consider the effect of boiling oil poured down on assaulting forces. Consider the mindset behind catapulting a pestilence-infected donkey over the castle walls or dropping it in the well. Fast forward to WWI and the technology of death had advanced to other forms of "gas and bugs." Mustard gas was particularly lethal. Forward again to nuclear weapons developed by the US to hasten the end of WWII. Add cluster munitions to the inventory. Paradoxically, the technology of death has evolved as fast as civilization. Man’s inhumanity to man is held in check only by his ability to distinguish between weapons used by combatants to kill each other (necessary evil) and those indiscriminant weapons that kill whoever gets in the way, such as cluster bombs, sarin gas, or a jet liner crashed into my boss’s office at the Pentagon 12 years ago today (just plain evil). The history of attempts to limit despicable weapons The Geneva Protocol, entered into force in Feb, 1928, was a direct response to the horrors of “the war to end all wars,” WWI. GP prohibits the use of "asphyxiating, poisonous or other gases, and of all analogous liquids, materials or devices" and "bacteriological methods of warfare". Note that it does not prohibit making these weapons. Note also that unlike Syria, who signed, the US signed only with a reservation which essentially comes down to the “no first use” policy. If someone attacks us with bugs, we are no longer bound by the protocol, and that is why we have big arsenals of despicable weapons through the Cold War. But after the Berlin Wall came down, that began to change. In the 1990s the Chemical Weapons Convention was created and entered into force in Apr, 1997. All but seven UN nations are party to the CWC: Angola, Myanmar, Egypt, Israel, North Korea, South Sudan, and Syria. The history of the US’s use of despicable weapons in the era you cited Yes, in Vietnam, the US used lots of chemicals, to include Agent Orange to wipe out jungle hiding places (what kills leaves also does a number on skin and lung tissue). This also included C4, the propellant behind Claymore mines, and White Phosphorous or "Willie P" which not only illuminates the night sky but also melts skin, and fougasse, a sticky, flammable fuel good for killing tanks. If the enemy has no tanks, fougasse (aka foo gas) works on grass huts, too. And yes, the US secretly went into places like Cambodia and Laos and American Soldiers and airmen lost there were abandoned, because we could not admit that we had sent anyone there. And during some battles, we used everything at our disposal to avoid leaving Americans behind, to include despicable weapons--except atomic and nuclear weapons. Yes, we had man-portable atomic bombs and of course lots of nukes. But so did the USSR, so we stuck to chemicals like C4, foo gas, Willie P, and sarin. The world’s response to the US action in Vietnam None. War is hell. We were trying to make the world safe for democracy. Our intentions were good. Plus, we have veto power at the UN Security Council. “Were we ever held accountable for using despicable weapons in Vietnam?” That is the wrong question. We lost. That was our punishment. We didn’t just leave with our tail tucked between our legs. We made a bunch of our own citizens targets for our spit and derision and goat-blood bombs. We left our own citizens homeless, reviled, sick from Agent Orange. We left our own citizens in POW camps and unmarked graves in places we could not legally look for them. We punished ourselves and we are still paying for it. What our experience in Vietnam means for the present We butted into Vietnam to protect democracy, and Iraq to build democracy, and both endeavors fell short. We successfully toppled the USSR, captured Noriega, pushed Saddam out of Kuwait, removed Milosevic from Kosovo, captured Saddam and left him to his fate, weakened that Taliban, offed Osama bin Laden, and ousted Gaddafi. Those later examples are more relevant to the task at hand. Assad is a thug. He gassed his own people. All around the world, people are people, meaning that some people are fighting, shooting, and raping other people. People seem to have tremendous capacity for both good and evil. But someone else’s fight or civil war or genocide is not necessarily our problem. I hate that people do despicable things to each other, but my yardstick is my family. When someone else’s violence threatens my family, it is time to get involved. The use of indiscriminant weapons such as cluster munitions, and nuclear, chemical (sarin), or biological (anthrax) weapons cannot be tolerated in the way that gun battles and knife fights might. Bottom Line: If Assad signs the CWC and turns his chemical weapons over to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), we can be slightly less unsure that Assad will not use WMD again in his bid to remain in power. Unenforced threats are soon seen as harmless saber rattling. If it takes the managed application of sanctioned violence to bring Assad to heel, so be it. The alternative is chaos and Armageddon.

Foamy, hat's off to you, brother, that was very well said! One quibble, though. In Vietnam, the French found themselves in over their heads in trying to protect Michelin's rubber plantations. We, the USA, entered the fray first as "advisors" and eventually spun it as defenders of democracy as we assumed the role of the primary combatant. Without delving into historical background details, (unless y'all really want to hear it) I'll just assert that Ho Chi Minh was the real Freedom Fighter in that mess.

[img]https://sphotos-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/q71/s720x720/1208931_515654511844843_738843387_n.jpg[/img] This was posted on FB by a good friend, a retired Navy mechanic who very rarely gets political.

quote: quote: Originally posted by fretwalker [img]https://sphotos-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/q71/s720x720/1208931_515654511844843_738843387_n.jpg[/img] This was posted on FB by a good friend, a retired Navy mechanic who very rarely gets political.

Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes....Don't ya think?.....[:I][:0][B)][:p][:p]........by the by...Foamy...great lay-out...couldn't have said it better myself...

quote: Originally posted by Oiznop quote: quote: quote: Originally posted by fretwalker [img]https://sphotos-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/q71/s720x720/1208931_515654511844843_738843387_n.jpg[/img] This was posted on FB by a good friend, a retired Navy mechanic who very rarely gets political. Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes....Don't ya think?.....[:I][:0][B)][:p][:p]........by the by...Foamy...great lay-out...couldn't have said it better myself...

Yes, Oiz. You couldn't have said it better yourself. A good lesson learned.

quote: Originally posted by kinger Planning a family trip in May 2014 to Lynchburg, VA. To celebrate my wife's graduation from Liberty University. Already having difficulty finding hotels nearby that have rooms available, and so now we are looking at renting a cabin or something. Anybody familiar with the area? Suggestions/tips on lodging, family fun, eats, and beverages would be welcomed. No firm plans yet, thinking of spending at least a few days in the area then maybe another day or two somewhere else before returning to oHIo.

Was just down that way, but we only day-visited Appomatox while based in Charlottesville, which wasn't far away. Plenty of options to stay in the latter. Watch your speed down there. VA has killed me twice with no-breaks tickets. Of 4 or 5 liftime tix ever, I have 2 in VA. One was more than 20 over and got me a reckless driving by speed misdemeanor! Not a single MPH was knocked off the ticket. I've had two great stays in the broader vicinity if you're into outdoors stuffs.... Luray area of the Shanendoahs.... and the Canaan Valley area of WV. But this is much further away and would only be good tips if you want to do something on the way into or out of that area. Absolutely beautiful stuffs. Good luck and enjoy!

I grew up near there close to Roanoke but I moved when I was 9 in 1985 so I don't think I will be much help lol. We have an active site member who lives in that area. Shoot him a beermail. http://www.beerpal.com/members/memberinfo.asp?UID=2114 Eagle is right about speeding. Do not go more than 5 over or you will get busted. Virginia is the only state that outlaws radar detectors. If they catch you with one they will take it from you and stick you with a big fine.

One suggestion though for family stuff, go see Natural Bridge. It is on some lists as one of the 7 wonders of the natural world. http://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g58003-i24040336-Natural_Bridge_Virginia.html http://www.naturalbridgeva.com/

Jealous. What I wouldn't give to be able to go back East for a few weeks and check out the areas. I love the West coast but other than a few cities, it lacks character/history that I love.