In answer to earlier comments - I think I'd know if my palate changing dramatically was the cause for me to ask this question. When one batch of Palo Santo to the next (which just so happened to coincide with their expansion) isn't nearly as good, I consider that a drop in quality. When it's then followed by similar drops in Immort Ale, Olde School, 120...don't think it's me. Sorry. When the only new beers you've put out are all $15 750's and every single one is a honey sweet and or spiced beer, while other breweries have expanded their line-ups in far better ways over the same amount of time...that's on you, not my palate changing. I still like them, but a couple years ago, I'd have taken them over many of the breweries I listed. I was excited about EVERY new release, and many of the seasonals or yearlies. Not really so excited anymore.

I never tasted the allure of DFH. Granted, I've had a small sampling...but their 90min IPA is a joke. I realize other's don't think this way. But I will not waste another cent on their product, no matter what the gimmick is. They make a few nice quaffable beers...elite brewer? Sure. They must be because I got some awesome "you're a dumbfuck" beermail over on RB years ago when I posted my review of it.

I still think World Wide Stout is world class. An amazing beer.

I would say they probably would still be in the top 10 of American craft brewers. Per dollar, are they worth it? Probably not. But, if you are talking overall quality and coast-to-coast distribution...easily in the elite. If "elite" includes just the top 3-5, it's a close call that can argue either way. But I still give them top 10 status.

Top ten in the US? No way. Too pricey with too many misses. Pretty good? Yes. They were cutting edge ten years ago. Immort Ale blew my mind back in 2004. I think that many brewers have surpassed them since then. It's not that they got worse, but others got better and DFH got crazy expensive by comparison.

quote: quote: Originally posted by slowrunner77 In answer to earlier comments - I think I'd know if my palate changing dramatically was the cause for me to ask this question. When one batch of Palo Santo to the next (which just so happened to coincide with their expansion) isn't nearly as good, I consider that a drop in quality. When it's then followed by similar drops in Immort Ale, Olde School, 120...don't think it's me. Sorry. When the only new beers you've put out are all $15 750's and every single one is a honey sweet and or spiced beer, while other breweries have expanded their line-ups in far better ways over the same amount of time...that's on you, not my palate changing. I still like them, but a couple years ago, I'd have taken them over many of the breweries I listed. I was excited about EVERY new release, and many of the seasonals or yearlies. Not really so excited anymore.

I think you individualized my comments about your palate changing. If yours hasn't, then great. It was only a general comment that tends to be true of all of us who are beer geeks. I know for sure that I now think (perceive) way differently about many beers I've had a decade or even as few as a handful of years ago. And it often isn't a phenomena related to the brewery's consistency, often it relates to more semi or pseudo subjective or psychological factors - one of which is palate. I wonder what quantitative ways there are to test such a thesis as "DFH is not as elite or good as it used to be on at least a relative if not absolute basis." For example, I look at your top 10 list and the fact that DFH was at one point in your top 5, and I don't see how Stone, AleSmith, Russian River, Bells, New Glarus, or Founders have done anything significant to go up in quality in that time (or to support on a relative basis that they all went down less in quality in the same time?). Their flagship brews are all rock solid consistent for the most part. How have they "stepped up" their games in that time? Stone may have more "new releases" now per year than they used to, but the others? I actually hear a lot less about special BA releases of AleSmith beers. NG has always had large variety and special releases, etc.... Prices have gone up for all, I'd be interested in seeing how relative pricing has changed for those, maybe there is something to DFH increasing more? They've always been kinda pricey, though. This is at least a quantifiable and studiable metric to check. My point was only that I don't see anything out there that demonstrates fundamental objective decline (relative or absolute) in DFH's brewing. It would be an incredibly interesting study to dig up some metrics and test various hypotheses around why DFH's image or perception have declined more than other breweries - if that is the thesis statement you're making in the first place. Sorry to have individualized "your" palate. There are many other semi to fully subjective reasons why such a decline could occur.... and they really aren't flaws in any one individual, they are in some cases psychological tendencies that vary person to person and time to time. We're humans.

Very nice Top 10. I usually don't even think of DFH until I see it on the shelf or am offered one... I may need to ponder this a bit.

quote: Originally posted by slowrunner77 Some of my beer geek pals and I had the discussion a couple weeks ago, that DFH, who had been a top 5 brewery for several of us, was no longer a top 10. When I really sit down and think about it, they may not even make the top 20. Between a slight dip in the quality of some old favorites, a plethora of overpriced (and overly similar) big bottles, and other breweries just stepping up, it’s a tough call. My top 10: Stone Alesmith Deschutes Russian River Founders Bells Cascade New Glarus Cigar City Firestone Walker and/or The Bruery Also in the top 20: Avery, Oskar Blues, Great Divide, Mikkeller, Port/Lost Abbey (also used to be top 10), Cantillon, Bear Republic. That leaves only 2 spaces in the top 20 for the likes of Dogfish Head, Sierra Nevada, Ommegang, Hair of the Dog, Three Floyds, Green Flash, Ballast Point, Drakes, Southern Tier, Evil Twin, Goose Island, Victory, Ayinger…I don’t know if DFH makes that cut. It would be hard to pick 2. Other awesome breweries out there too, that we just haven’t had enough of to include, like Hill Farmstead, among others. What do the Pals think? What are your favorite brewers?

quote: Originally posted by fargingbastige6 Very nice Top 10. I usually don't even think of DFH until I see it on the shelf or am offered one... I may need to ponder this a bit. quote: quote: Originally posted by slowrunner77 Some of my beer geek pals and I had the discussion a couple weeks ago, that DFH, who had been a top 5 brewery for several of us, was no longer a top 10. When I really sit down and think about it, they may not even make the top 20. Between a slight dip in the quality of some old favorites, a plethora of overpriced (and overly similar) big bottles, and other breweries just stepping up, it’s a tough call. My top 10: Stone Alesmith Deschutes Russian River Founders Bells Cascade New Glarus Cigar City Firestone Walker and/or The Bruery Also in the top 20: Avery, Oskar Blues, Great Divide, Mikkeller, Port/Lost Abbey (also used to be top 10), Cantillon, Bear Republic. That leaves only 2 spaces in the top 20 for the likes of Dogfish Head, Sierra Nevada, Ommegang, Hair of the Dog, Three Floyds, Green Flash, Ballast Point, Drakes, Southern Tier, Evil Twin, Goose Island, Victory, Ayinger…I don’t know if DFH makes that cut. It would be hard to pick 2. Other awesome breweries out there too, that we just haven’t had enough of to include, like Hill Farmstead, among others. What do the Pals think? What are your favorite brewers?

I love pondering things such as this. Oh, gee, is this brewery one of my ten favorites, or 15 favorites? Lets have a drink or two and decide. [:)] There's also this: http://capegazette.villagesoup.com/p/new-york-couple-to-hike-from-brooklyn-to-rehoboth/967544?cid=226081

I am arriving a little late to the party. My appreciation for DFH is closely related to the fact that I heard Sammy give a talk at R.F.D. Washington, then spoke with him on a couple other occasions, and toured the brewery, and had my picture taken with Randal the Enamel Animal, and gotten trampled at the little joint in Rehoboth, and watched the Ale houses spring up, and, and, yaddah, yaddah. So it's personality and culture and branding as much as the beer, if not more. The honest truth is, this DFH fan-boy would be hard-pressed to say that DFH should bump any one of the brewers listed out of SR77's top 10. Mind you, I would totally re-shuffle his top-10 (ha!) but to argue that Sammy and crew should bump any of them? Tough. I think Sammy is a hip-hop artist / Rock Star who got distracted by brewing. I think the DFH portfolio is different from, say, Firestone Walker's portfolio in a few interesting ways. I don't quibble with F/W being in anyone's top-10 on quality, but F/W represents predictability. DFH has never been about predictability or replication. DFH is nothing, if not continually pushing boundaries. Best beer? Hard to beat New Glarus or Hair of the Dog but some DFH brews, such as the afore-mentioned World Wide Stout, are in the hunt. Best brewery? Guess that depends on what one uses as a yardstick! Me, I value the avant-garde spirit of off-centered, revivalist, non-traditional, playful, joyful, rarely-make-the-same-thing-twice, boundary-pushing DFH. Flagship, schmagship! Let’s invent something quirky (and quite possibly delicious) to drink!

quote: quote: quote: Originally posted by FoamDome I am arriving a little late to the party. My appreciation for DFH is closely related to the fact that I heard Sammy give a talk at R.F.D. Washington, then spoke with him on a couple other occasions, and toured the brewery, and had my picture taken with Randal the Enamel Animal, and gotten trampled at the little joint in Rehoboth, and watched the Ale houses spring up, and, and, yaddah, yaddah. So it's personality and culture and branding as much as the beer, if not more. The honest truth is, this DFH fan-boy would be hard-pressed to say that DFH should bump any one of the brewers listed out of SR77's top 10. Mind you, I would totally re-shuffle his top-10 (ha!) but to argue that Sammy and crew should bump any of them? Tough. I think Sammy is a hip-hop artist / Rock Star who got distracted by brewing. I think the DFH portfolio is different from, say, Firestone Walker's portfolio in a few interesting ways. I don't quibble with F/W being in anyone's top-10 on quality, but F/W represents predictability. DFH has never been about predictability or replication. DFH is nothing, if not continually pushing boundaries. Best beer? Hard to beat New Glarus or Hair of the Dog but some DFH brews, such as the afore-mentioned World Wide Stout, are in the hunt. Best brewery? Guess that depends on what one uses as a yardstick! Me, I value the avant-garde spirit of off-centered, revivalist, non-traditional, playful, joyful, rarely-make-the-same-thing-twice, boundary-pushing DFH. Flagship, schmagship! Let’s invent something quirky (and quite possibly delicious) to drink!

In short, you like their marketing. That is valid. Personally, I value quality, consistency and reasonable pricing. All things where multiple brewers surpass DFH. Plenty of other brewers push the envelop without so many (really) expensive experiments. We just have different priorities. That said, I still think DFH is one of the better brewers out there but, much like Three Floyds, they priced themselves out of my buying range years ago. It doesn't help that both brewers pulled out of my state.