In Reply To #27 Brad, it's not enough to knock the BJCP--anyone can find fault. What is a superior style guide? Does the Terrier acknowledge one? Is there an accepted resource used in Deutchland--where did you get your starting gravity figures for Bock and Double Bock? Thanks

Not knocking anything, just saying. Got the numbers from De Massa I work under. The point is the styles are very open here. Meet the minimum gravity requirements, the rest is up to the brewer. Home brewing is not brewing for the public. My analogy is difference in street racing and fuel dragster. For me, my own taste is a superior style guide to any published. I go on what the hell does this brew do to me the next day? What is it like if I leave it out over night (breakfast bier)? The sip and spit method of judging does nothing for me. By the way, from what I can tell by asking, no one has heard of the BJCP standards here. Of course, most folks can't read English...

In Reply To #30 Like you, I prefer the sip and savor method of enjoying beer over the sip and spit method of judging. Quality beer is the main event! Relative to enjoying beer, the classification of it is merely an interesting sidebar. But I do think having standards is useful to describing the variety of beers in the world, and creating or recognizing new beers. I can understand why folks in Germany would not be interested in BJCP standards. They were really written for American homebrewer competitions. If there is a German equivalent, the GABF organizers probably don't pay much attention to it, either. There have been subsequent standards developed, however, including the WBC standards, which are more inclusive of world-wide styles and more oriented on professional breweries. The GABF (judged by the BJCP standards) isn't open to German breweries, but the WBC is. If Terrier enters a bock in the WBC, then they would have an interest in the WBC standards. Personally, I am interested in learning whether the Terrier would have to change its recipe in order to enter a WBC-sanctioned competition--and if so, what kind of impact that would have. Do you want me to post the WBC range limits for bocks?

In Reply To #31 Please! And who is the WBC?

In Reply To #30 "The sip and spit method of judging does nothing for me." There is a joke here; however, I'll refrain...;)

In Reply To #33 Please! And who is the WBC? Westbrook Baptist Church? Please Sassy, de joke, de joke! Ok, so I ask Massa how come he never enters competitions? He replied with something like "medals don't pay the bills". What I am learning is the folks that buy your brew are the ultimate judges of the product. Keep them happy, and the lights stay on. The Wounded Terrier is not the end all and be all of the Deutsch brewing business. It is just my favorite local, and the one I am lucky enough to work at. Some days, like when I destroyed 100 bottles of mineral water, (the poor Massa was in tears)he looks to heaven and says "Lord you ARE punishing me for being Protestant are you not"? At times he believes I am sent by Bush to punish the Deutsch for not going to Iraq, or I secretly work for the regional dominate Furstenberg, and have been sent to destroy him. Ok, a word about being a Braumeister aka Brewmisser Once one has obtained this lofty position, one becomes a freeman in the brewing world. If you follow the standards and traditions of the craft, you have free reign to create your own interpetations of the classic styles. As noted above, your clients are the ultimate judge of your product. The guidelines are very loose (giving the brewer enough rope to....) to insure creativity, yet allows the drinker to know what they are paying for. More to come...

In Reply To #34 Close, Brad. WBC is actually the Winnetka Bible Church, http://www.wbc.org/. I am the supervisor of brewing operations. We brew more than coffee here! As summer is approaching, maybe I can sign you up for Vacation Brewing School? Happy Easter, my son. Enjoy Easter Montag as well, mit dem Deutcher!

In Reply To #35 Nein alles Katze lickers, heir! You funny guy! We all be beer pals, and damn the rest!

In Reply To #36 Missed you at church yesterday, Brad! Here's the WBC Style Guide info on Style #26, Traditional German-Style Bock. Real curious to hear back how it compares with the real deal! Traditional bocks are made with all malt and are strong, malty, medium- to full-bodied, bottom-fermented beers with moderate hop bitterness that should increase proportionately with the starting gravity. Hop flavor should be low and hop aroma should be very low. Bocks can range in color from deep copper to dark brown. Fruity esters may be perceived at low levels. OG-lo 1.066 OG-Hi 1.074 Plato-Lo 16.5 Plato-Hi 18.5 FG-lo 1.018 FG-Hi 1.024 Plato-Lo 4.5 Plato-Hi 6 ABV-Lo 6.3 ABV-Hi 7.5 ABW-Lo 5 ABW-Hi 6 IBU Lo 20 IBU Hi 30 SRM LO 20 SRM Hi 30 EBC Lo 40 EBC Hi 60 There's more where this came from!

In Reply To #38 I will go and look in the "book" to get details, but right off the bat, there are plenty of golden (heller) bocks about. As far as hops go, one of the tricks here is to use all aroma hops. The bitterness is not strong, but there is a pronounced hop flavor to Some bocks. Decotion plays a huge part in the color and flavor of all traditional bocks. Abv minimums tend towards 6%, all the way up to 9%, then of course Eis bock comes into play However in smaller operations, rumor has abv numbers over 10% for "flat footed bocks" aka non-eis. Minimum plato is 16% to be called bock, after that it is up to the brewer. Much easier to say-lager minimum 16% plato bock, 18% dopple bock. After that, it is a matter of taste.