Maybelle is a good example of one that started as a farmhouse ale, but with the adding of brett became a wild ale...

A wild ale, at least by American definition, is a beer that uses a yeast other than Saccharomyces cervisae for fermentation. A wild ale's base beer can be anything you want it to be. Especially a "Saison." That part of the question confuses me. The base beer, whatever that is- Generic belgian ale category, saison, stout, etc. will always exist. But after the addition of Brett and/or other wild yeast or bacteria during fermentation, it's category shifts to a wild ale. Because that's what it is. I don't know any other way to explain it. Styles are funny and can sometimes be confusing. Especially since we are still making them up as we go along. So I just drink.

Ok. So maybe the answer is simply, a wild ale is not a wild ale when it is not introduced to wild yeast.

"But after the addition of Brett and/or other wild yeast or bacteria during fermentation, it's category shifts to a wild ale. Because that's what it is." That's kind of my point. In (almost) all catergories, adding wild yeast/bacteria makes it a wild ale. The only time there seems to be exceptions with any regularity is when it's a farmhouse/saison base. I wasn't saying that is correct, it just is. If you took that definition then several of the top saisons should be wild...hence the question. But yeah, it's a slippery slope trying to classify everything...

quote: Originally posted by slowrunner77 "But after the addition of Brett and/or other wild yeast or bacteria during fermentation, it's category shifts to a wild ale. Because that's what it is." That's kind of my point. In (almost) all catergories, adding wild yeast/bacteria makes it a wild ale. The only time there seems to be exceptions with any regularity is when it's a farmhouse/saison base. I wasn't saying that is correct, it just is. If you took that definition then several of the top saisons should be wild...hence the question. But yeah, it's a slippery slope trying to classify everything...

quote: quote: Originally posted by Phishpond417 quote: quote: quote: Originally posted by slowrunner77 "But after the addition of Brett and/or other wild yeast or bacteria during fermentation, it's category shifts to a wild ale. Because that's what it is." That's kind of my point. In (almost) all catergories, adding wild yeast/bacteria makes it a wild ale. The only time there seems to be exceptions with any regularity is when it's a farmhouse/saison base. I wasn't saying that is correct, it just is. If you took that definition then several of the top saisons should be wild...hence the question. But yeah, it's a slippery slope trying to classify everything... If any American brewery is trying to label a saison/farmhouse a wild ale when it has not gone through a wild fermentation then they are misleading the consumer and that is false advertising. Can you name a brewery offhand that has done that? I can't think of any off the top of my head but my brain is running kind of slow right now.

I can see if you'd only read the post you responded to, but taken in the context of the thread and my first post, it's that there are many wild ales not listed as wild ales. They are listed as saisons. My point it/was you don't see that with other (base) categories. I was just wondering why. I don't think I'm getting an answer...

quote: Originally posted by slowrunner77 quote: quote: quote: Originally posted by Phishpond417 quote: quote: quote: quote: Originally posted by slowrunner77 "But after the addition of Brett and/or other wild yeast or bacteria during fermentation, it's category shifts to a wild ale. Because that's what it is." That's kind of my point. In (almost) all catergories, adding wild yeast/bacteria makes it a wild ale. The only time there seems to be exceptions with any regularity is when it's a farmhouse/saison base. I wasn't saying that is correct, it just is. If you took that definition then several of the top saisons should be wild...hence the question. But yeah, it's a slippery slope trying to classify everything... If any American brewery is trying to label a saison/farmhouse a wild ale when it has not gone through a wild fermentation then they are misleading the consumer and that is false advertising. Can you name a brewery offhand that has done that? I can't think of any off the top of my head but my brain is running kind of slow right now. Are you messing with me, Travis? I'm talking about the exact opposite of that. And gave several examples in the very first post.. Not calling a saison that is not a wild ale a wild ale. Call what should be called a wild ale a saison.

Orval anyone? Perhaps the line could be drawn based on what yeast(s) are used for primary fermentation. Some brett influenced beers introduce the brett strains after primary fermentation is winding down. The primary fermentation is achieved with normal ale yeasts, the brett is added and continues to attenuate the beer. My guess is most Saisons w/ brett are done this way. 100% brett beers do exist, but I don't think it's the norm. Now lacto and other souring strains can and are used throughout the fermentation process, and from what I understand the sooner these strains are introduced the more sour character you'll have. So I would keep it simple and only include non-traditional lambic sours in this category. Brett beers only can be included if lacto and/or other wild yeasts are used. A beer such as Orval or brett saisons with brett added would be classified under their original style.

quote: quote: Originally posted by kinger Orval anyone? Perhaps the line could be drawn based on what yeast(s) are used for primary fermentation. Some brett influenced beers introduce the brett strains after primary fermentation is winding down. The primary fermentation is achieved with normal ale yeasts, the brett is added and continues to attenuate the beer. My guess is most Saisons w/ brett are done this way. 100% brett beers do exist, but I don't think it's the norm. Now lacto and other souring strains can and are used throughout the fermentation process, and from what I understand the sooner these strains are introduced the more sour character you'll have. So I would keep it simple and only include non-traditional lambic sours in this category. Brett beers only can be included if lacto and/or other wild yeasts are used. A beer such as Orval or brett saisons with brett added would be classified under their original style.