quote: Originally posted by Phishpond417 Interesting. Most people agree that he should have been killed. Was he the so-called "mastermind" behind the attacks? Probably Did he coordinate it all by himself? Probably not. I don't think Osama Bin Laden was that smart. I think he was CRAZY. But I don't think he was that smart to be able to do all of that himself.

People who don't think ObL was all that smart maybe don't have enough information to make such an assessment.

quote: Washington Post The conventional view is that Zawahiri, an Egyptian doctor and al-Qaeda’s longtime second in command, has been bin Laden’s “brain.” But in making the most important strategic shift in al-Qaeda’s history — identifying the United States as its key enemy, rather than Middle Eastern regimes — bin Laden brushed aside Zawahiri’s obsessive focus on overthrowing the Egyptian government. Bin Laden also kept Zawahiri in the dark for years about al-Qaeda’s most important operation — the planning for the 9/11 attacks — cluing in his deputy only during the summer of 2001.

quote: Originally posted by Phishpond417 Should they have killed him? I haven't really heard anybody voice the opinion that maybe, just Maybe we shouldn't have killed Osama. What are your thoughts?

ObL admitted to being the terrorist mastermind behind a number of attacks against us resulting in the deaths of thousands of Americans. He vowed to continue his campaign of terror until we met his demands. He openly mocked our attempts to capture him and bring him to justice. Speaking only for myself, as a person who walked out of the Pentagon alive on 9/11, then went to 24 funerals over the next 90 days, I am convinced that the world is a better place now that ObL is captured, executed, and buried in a place where no follower can mourn him. Had ObL died of old age or had he been afforded some grand burial place it would have been a gross miscarriage of justice. ObL deserved to die a violent death at the hands of an American—one American acting for us all. I am inclined to believe that orders were to capture or kill ObL while minimizing both collateral damage and risk to the assault team. I also believe that more planning was devoted to properly disposing of ObL’s dead corpse than to where to hold him should he be captured alive. After all, dead or alive means dead to the law: saves time and money and reduces risk. Once the first defensive shot was fired, there was no way ObL was getting out of his walled compound alive. "They" did not kill ObL. "We" killed him, and rightly so.

quote: Originally posted by bluesandbarbq quote: quote: Originally posted by slowrunner77 I thought the USA, USA chants during a baseball game were a bit...idunno...classless...hillbilly... Brother Chris, Hillbillies are glad the bastard is dead but we didn't run around waving flags on the evening news, drinking moonshine and chanting USA USA USA. Never ever confuse classless with hillbilly. NOT the same.[:)]

Last Sunday night I did not join the crowd in front of the White House chanting "USA!" Some of the behavior I saw on TV reminded me too much of some jingoistic celebrations I have seen from the other side. Perhaps people are not as different as we would like to think. But I did go to Arlington National Cemetery and let my old boss know the good news. I believe General Maude is resting more peacefully now. "I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure." -- Mark Twain

Great Twain quote, Foam.

quote: Originally posted by FoamDome quote: quote: Originally posted by bluesandbarbq quote: quote: quote: Originally posted by slowrunner77 I thought the USA, USA chants during a baseball game were a bit...idunno...classless...hillbilly... Brother Chris, Hillbillies are glad the bastard is dead but we didn't run around waving flags on the evening news, drinking moonshine and chanting USA USA USA. Never ever confuse classless with hillbilly. NOT the same.[:)] Last Sunday night I did not join the crowd in front of the White House chanting "USA!" Some of the behavior I saw on TV reminded me too much of some jingoistic celebrations I have seen from the other side. Perhaps people are not as different as we would like to think. But I did go to Arlington National Cemetery and let my old boss know the good news. I believe General Maude is resting more peacefully now. "I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure." -- Mark Twain

I find this quote apropos as well, farg: "I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr. Being relieved that ObL is dead is not the same as partying in the streets. I agree 100% with the Commander in Chief who: (a) ordered the attack by Special Operations troops on the ground instead of Tomahawk missiles or Drones with Hellfire missiles. This was up close and personal. (b) ordered that ObL's body be treated with dignity and respect, and buried within 24 hours, while simultaneously denying followers a specific burial place to congregate. (c) discouraged taunting, declaring victory, spiking the ball in the end zone, etc. This killing was a point of honor executed by highly trained and well equipped professionals, not some drunk cowboy's turkey shoot. (d) refused to publish the post-mortem photos. People who do not believe Obama was born in Hawaii still do not believe it, despite the long form birth certificate, so the photos of ObL's corpse would prove nothing to doubters and could only serve to further fan the flames of retaliation. (e) steadfastly worked to prevent conflating ObL with Islam. ObL was a Muslim but not a Muslim leader. We are all connected. I have deep respect for human life--for all life. However, not ALL deaths diminish me.

a) Agree. SpecOps was the best choice. Tomahawks, etc. while precise are not that precise. This was targeting a Tier One HVT. Likewise, an area weapon strike, regardless of precision could leave doubt as to whether he was actually there and whether they actually got him. b) Agree. Nothing wrong with a dignified burial at sea. I don't think there was any extraordinary effort expended in doing so. Denying a specific location to be a shrine was a shrewed move. Honestly when I first heard "burial at sea", I imagined him being tossed out the door of a UH-60. c) Agree. Wild celebrations (and there are those who would suggest publically showing the body) are not too far removed from the Mog in '93 when Shugart and Gordon were dragged through the streets. One can be proud of our accomplishments without such a spectacle. That feeds the propaganda machine and hurts our strategic communication. d) Would a photo really prove anything? No. we've already seen that fake photos are circulating via the web. Some people will not be satified... some wouldn't believe it if they saw the action in person. Some will always doubt. There will be retaliation and/or threats thereof, photo or not.

quote: Originally posted by FoamDome I find this quote apropos as well, farg: "I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr. Being relieved that ObL is dead is not the same as partying in the streets. I agree 100% with the Commander in Chief who: (a) ordered the attack by Special Operations troops on the ground instead of Tomahawk missiles or Drones with Hellfire missiles. This was up close and personal. (b) ordered that ObL's body be treated with dignity and respect, and buried within 24 hours, while simultaneously denying followers a specific burial place to congregate. (c) discouraged taunting, declaring victory, spiking the ball in the end zone, etc. This killing was a point of honor executed by highly trained and well equipped professionals, not some drunk cowboy's turkey shoot. (d) refused to publish the post-mortem photos. People who do not believe Obama was born in Hawaii still do not believe it, despite the long form birth certificate, so the photos of ObL's corpse would prove nothing to doubters and could only serve to further fan the flames of retaliation. (e) steadfastly worked to prevent conflating ObL with Islam. ObL was a Muslim but not a Muslim leader. We are all connected. I have deep respect for human life--for all life. However, not ALL deaths diminish me.

Illegal murder is illegal.

The purpose of capturing and not killing: to give the person a fair trial and see through justice. The problems with capturing: a total friggin waste of our tax dollars, as this would have turned into an infinitely long mess, no other country was the clear "tribunal" (like Iraq for Saddam), and there's a risk that no matter what proceeding you try to follow, he gets off. And then, lastly, you give this guy a public forum and pulpit to further spread his propaganda. Did I even add in all of the world mess and scrutiny and threats and disastrous type of things that could be triggered by all this? No thanks. Justice was served. He had his trial for 10 years with multiple confessions. And to think that any Seal would take a risk that he might not really be lethal and NOT shoot... Forget that too. Job well done. This has to be up there with one of the most well-executed Seal missions ever. Not that we'd know about the ones that aren't high profile, but..... Geez, let's move on. This isn't even a topic for further discussion. Can't wait to see the revisionist historians get to this one. Long sigh.

The wanker should be drowned! Up to his hind teeth in water and dead fish!

I must be a heathen. All this reflection and hand-wringing and quote searching... The world should rejoice when a mass murderer dies, no matter if he's Muslim, Christian, Atheist, Buddhist or what-have-you. And when the next psychopath takes their place (they always do), they can get burned as well. Obviously, all the positive wishes and hopes and "wouldn't it be nice if" in the world aren't going to take away the evil people. The history of the world has shown this to be true. So when the next Adolf Hitler dies, or the next bin laden dies, or the next Pol Pot dies...I will rejoice. Sorry Martin. If that was a true quote, you can love thy neighbor, but if thy neighbor is a mass murderer, then put a bullet between his eyes.